I have one of those 8.1 laptops - I LITERALLY fished it out of a dumpster.
I would say it can sometimes be nice to have an old Laptop for this purpose, you have to slightly over build your solar but can be nice to have a mouse and keyboard attached and monitor, ssh works. Still have an hp laptop with a core i5 2nd gen sitting out in my greenhouse, is a little more power hungry but not terrible on idle, and is nice to be able to configure changes to watering without going back inside or wrecking the zen by bringing phone.
Power consumption is a massive reason to really not do that. Its cheap for a reason, its takes a shitload of power to be shit and you will pay more in energy than you save in hardware unless its only powered on for short periods of time - a server typically isn’t.
This is actually something that applies to cheap products too. Was in Asda a little while ago and saw 2 LED bulbs with the same lumen rating. Cheaper one used 3w more and you only saved £1. Running it for 8 hours a day for a year would cost double that saving in electricity. For a server you are looking at almost £2 per watt each year. Does that ewaste look so good to you now?
Some things are absolutely worth getting second hand, but you really should be careful considering the power cost as well.
Quick edit: If you don’t need it running 24/7, consider something like AWS too. I love selfhosting but if its not running much it might be cheaper to not bother buying hardware.
Aren’t laptops typically very energy efficient? Low consumption converts to high battery life, which is a priority for laptop hardware.
Some of them consume less than 10W.
Yes actually still sounds good. Raspberry Pis actually have quite high power draw compared to the performance they give. Like sure the number might be smallish but the performance they give and functionality they have is awful compared to even a mini PC which use similar power. Mini PCs btw are actually one of the best options in performance per watt and can still be cheap, plus they have upgradable RAM and storage. A Mac mini is more expensive but will thrash everything else in efficiency and performance per watt, although non-upgradable. Even slightly older laptops will only draw tens of watts when fully charged, vs a desktop or proper server that could pull 100W even at idle in some cases. Older laptops tended to be more upgradable too.
I’m not taking electronics advice from someone who uses the term lappies.
There’s lots of ways to make existing hardware more efficient at the cost of performance. Under-volting the CPU and RAM (or just putting them in “efficiency” mode) can probably save more electricity than you lose in generational improvements. Considering how much more powerful PCs are compared to SBCs, you’d probably still have better performance than an SBC. Also, a more powerful CPU that takes double the power but as a result can idle for more than 50% of the time would be more efficient than a less powerful CPU never idling.
There’s a lot of other variables (like idle power draw, efficiency at various power levels, idle latency, etc), but in general I think your statement would be inaccurate at least 60% of the time.
Oh I am not saying specifically get a raspberry pi, personally looking at a bee-link N150 mini PC. It isn’t even that much more expensive than the 16GB raspberry pi and as its x86 I can just run normal debian installs in proxmox.
The post is talking about RPis and other SBCs. Mini PCs are in a whole different category.
The day i can fit the power of a computer capable of emulating the switch 1 in a gameboy shell will be glorious.
We must be pretty close on that by now, I can emulate a number of Switch 1 games surprisingly OK (not amazing, just OK) on my S21!
say what again?
You probably could with a phone
And for some (including me) that’s our only computer (other than phone). I just can’t afford anything, so all I have is a shitty laptop from 2010 that barely plays 1080p video. I deeply want something better, especially a steam deck, but doesn’t look like that’ll happen anytime soon (or ever). And then you see people have steam decks that just sit there, unused, gathering dust… fuck.
You want a steam deck to replace your only computer?
Why not? especially when it’s a laptop from 2010
I dislike posts like this. Technology moves quickly. PIs are great for hobby electronics where you need a little computer. Want a cheap computer to run a few things 24/7 and know what you’re doing? Pi it is. You don’t need to run containers on a pi because you have the skills to install the dependencies manually. They cost pennies to run 24/7.
I think of pis as beefed-up calculators. I have made lots of money using a pi zero running code I needed to run 24/7. Code I developed myself.
Having an old laptop with outdated parts taking up lots of space, weighing a lot, and having components like fans, keyboard, and mousepad most-likely soon dying and needing replacing is an additional concern you don’t want.
Someone below saying use an old laptop if you’re living with parents and don’t pay the electricity bill is a bit lame. Do your part for the world. Someone will be paying for it.
Ultimately, use what you want but if you’re just starting with servers, use a virtual machine on your computer and log in to it. You can dick about with it as much as you want, and reset back to a working state in seconds.
Laptops don’t even use that much power. You guys are really not into home labbing or as good with tech as you think you are lol. Lots of people run older real servers and desktops as home servers. They use way more power than laptops. Raspberry Pis sound good but use progressively more power in each generation, and still struggle to compete with mini PCs and even older laptops in performance. They also never had good performance per watt. In performance per watt basically nothing beats a Mac Mini, though other mini PCs are also good. Laptops aren’t bad in energy efficiency either. They are literally designed to run on battery so have as little idle draw as possible. They would be comparable to a mini PC if you turn off the display.
Edit: Modern RPis apparently use 25W, which is firmly in the territory of what a laptop would use when not running the screen or charging the battery.
Yeah, theres a lot of old old laptops which make no sense to run. But there’s a growing crop of more recent used devices that are only being sold off because they don’t support Windows 11, and the power efficiency story changes there. The OOP mentions “8.1 lappies”; my main laptop has a 15W 8th gen which is only in the last year starting to feel less appropriate for desktop use. (And honestly, a RAM and storage bump will probably get me another couple years.)
For environmental concerns, youve got to tax new devices with manufacturing costs as well.
100% agree about VMs though.
I think this really depends on the model they’re eyeballing because the Pi5 is frankly ridiculous for the price and has absurd power requirements (5V5A USB?). I wouldn’t recommend one of these unless you have a specific need like a certain hat or the GPIO pins. You can get a Dell micro Optiplex for less money and have a full fledged i5 or i7 processor with similar power usage.
Plus the RPi Foundation exposed themselves as the greedy bastards they are during COVID which is yet another reason to turn your back on them.
For something like a Pi Zero, maybe go for it, but there are similar devices out there from other companies too.
You can get a Dell micro Optiplex for less money and have a full fledged i5 or i7 processor with similar power usage.
Absolutely, I’ve got a cluster of mini PCs with 7th/8th gen T sku i7s, plus an Optiplex SFF running a standard i7-7700, and everything together draws less than 100W on average.
I mostly agree, and did the same with my second gen lab build - instead of shiny new NUCs like I had used round 1, I bought old off lease Dell Xeon boxes. SO MANY PROS -
- Got them up to 14c/28t each
- They can take GPUs and actually do heavy transcoding/ML work
- They can take up to like, 128GB of memory, which is GREAT when they’re all hypervisors
The downsides can’t be denied though -
- Even without the GPUs and beefed up CPUs, they are power hogs - the CPU alone uses more than an ENTIRE NUC
- They run HOT
- They run LOUD
The same holds true for off-lease SFF stuff, Lenovo and the likes …
So while reuse/repurpose is absolutely of the utmost importance, no question - when it comes to technology and how quickly it advances and miniaturizes, a thorough and logical pros/cons list is often required.
I’d add another option though - if you do need what a Pi brings to the table - do you really need a shiny new Pi 5? Is it possible a used Pi 3 or Pi 4 would do the trick, and check the reuse box?
RPis aren’t energy efficient either. Any situation where you are thinking of putting more than one of them in a cluster you should just buy mini PCs instead.
The power aspect is a lot bigger of a factor than I would have thought. I had an old computer I was going to use as a server for Foundry that I could keep up all the time, but when I measured its wattage and did the math, it would cost me $20 a month to keep on. A pi costs like $2 to keep running, so it paid for itself pretty quick
Or get a used thin client (e. g. HP T620, T630, T640 or Dell Wyse 5070). Cost: ~40-100$. Biggest advantage: Passive cooling, i. e. they’re absolutely quiet.
Some are talking about power consumption in this thread and I’ve had similar ideas. Gone are the days where I can run a beefy spec’d desktop in good conscience, it’s just such a resource hog. I have a laptop that stays in hibernate mostly. My other idea for a low power consumption home computer was to get a Le Potato single board and pair that with an e-ink monitor (there’s some really nice ones out there) which I think was sitting at maaaaybe ~5kwh. I think the more we can limit our power consumption, the better, all that electricty directy translates into coal being burned and additional CO2 being created. I’m no luddite, but it has impacted how I consume media which is now very mindful of the impact watching a few episodes/playing a couple hours of games versus just one or two hours of content on any given day.
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unless you buy really stupidly, every single of those points is not true.
Rockchip boards are way more efficient than Pis
I now have a stack of Thinkpads laying around. Right next to my two RPis 😂
I really should pick up another used thinkpad… I’ve got one for my wife, one for me for work, and I would really like to have a personal in the mix to make my life easier.
Add use of gpio to reasons to use pie.
While gpio adaptors are available for pc. The software architecture is not as well rounded and documented.
So for any complex hardware project development. Gpio based SBCs are often essential.
So space, low power and gpio development.
Otherwise yep old laptop or even desktop can be cheaper and more able.
But overall. The wide software support and documentation for hardware connectivity is a bloody good reason to keep pie supported.
I’m setting 2 up to control the hot water and solar dump system on my shared little boat. As I want to link 12v Lifepo4 batt charging with the solar dump and visually impaired control for AC and diesel heating of the water.
Pies really are the best option to play with. While low power and easy to design a unique low vision interface.
Also UK boat safty. Is issuing warning about permanently connected li ion batts on boats. So it is likely setting up a laptop to manage this while not on the boat. Will be banned in the near future.
Only an issue for UK boating but worth considering the risks of leaving laptops to run when not observed.
I bet you could instead use an ESP32 for GPIO and just connect it remotely to whatever Pi alternative you use (if needed at all). Turning some switches on and off while monitoring input values doesn’t sound very computationally intensive.
Yep that can work. But ignores all the well documented and supported development community comments I pointed to while also indicating other options exist.
As for.
Turning some switches on and off while monitoring input values doesn’t sound very computationally intensive.
You realise IO wise that describes your keyboard and mouse interaction on the most powerful gaming PCs.
It’s what you do with the results that matters.
GPIO supports a fair bit more then the on and off input and output. It’s slow compared to other systems. But has multiple serial protocols of differing types. Simple GUI displays can also be run via gpio connections. Low Res Lidar devices are available connected via the spi connections with all the data processed on that host PC.
So no gpio use can require all levels of processing power post connection. It is after all designed for experimentation and prototyping.
For my project. You clost to correct. I just use a simple GUI displays with xorg. So a pie 0 is plenty. And way lower power then the other options. It links to a pwm controller to power 2 12v 200w water tank heaters a relay for a 750w AC heater. Bluetooth connection to a BMS and solar MPPT. While operating multiple temp sensors measuring at different levels. And warning of legionaries risk. If the tank has not been over 65c in 14 days (actually 10 days but I’m over careful given the health status of my brother and I).
So much less then the tiny Pie 0 would not be able to cope but mainly due to the need for the vision impaired interface. Speaking functions dose not take much. But doing so without being unusably slow is about the limit of a pie 0.
Any photos of the boat and setup?
The only caveat here is the fire-hazard non-removable lithium batteries.
This is, in my mind, one of the benefits of laptops over micro computers: integrated UPS. Even an old, degraded battery will probably get you a couple of hours with the screen off.
IME, power consumption is going to be worse overall, for any laptop likely to be in the recycle bin, it’s probably double the consumption of an ARM SBC. The integrated UPS and usually decent power conditioning of the power supply saves you more money with a laptop. Plus, keyboard and screen for emergencies - I just generally expect that, over there life of a micro I’m going to have to drag out and plug in a spare keyboard, mouse, and monitor because something in a device, or an upgrade, or BIOS flash, is preventing a boot.
There are a lot of good reasons to use laptops instead of SBCs, if you don’t mind the extra power draw and (as she says) don’t have size requirements.
They make batteries for raspberry pi too you know.
No, I didn’t. I don’t use Pis, I have ODroids. Heck, they may sell batteries for ODroids, too.
For me, it wouldn’t have made much difference because I have UPSes around the house serving things like routers, modems, and switches. And I do care about size and energy use. I’m only saying there are advantages to using laptops.
You can get little integrated LCD cases for Pis too, can’t you? And maybe even a little fold-out keyboard. Congratulations! You’ve re-invented the laptop!
ODroids don’t meet European legal hazard levels on poisonous fumes. I bought one back in the day and they explained they won’t apply for the test because of “the cost”… not that it uses cheap solder that don’t meet lead limits.
Not simple to remove. They can all be taken out.
But the fire risk is a very valid point. All laptops should indicate they should not be left alone when charging. While many do. Setting one up in a unobserved location to run permanently should be batteryless or Lifepo4 adapted. So laptops may not be best suited to this environment. A used thin client or other DC input option may be much easier. Or an old desktop if batts and not wanted.
Replacement is usually removing 6-10 screws and prying the case with a guitar pick or old credit card. There is most likely a disassembly video on youtube. Batteries from aliexpress or the like are usually cheap (although probably more expensive than the computer). Depending on the application, the “built-in UPS” can be nice.
but what will fix the fire hazard of the charger? how will you be able to keep it plugged in 24/7?
I do SMB support, so I have a pretty good idea of what people tend to do.
I haven’t seen a PS brick catch fire (possible, OFC, but extremely rare in my opinion) i have seen a PC PSU catch fire, and because of the fan, it’s fucking scsry, like a jet with the afterburner.
‘non-removable’ lol
Get them from where? I always read about these basically-free computers but have yet to see one
Facebook marketplace, kjiji, etc
Everyone here thinks their shit tier 2018 laptop is made of gold or something.
Pawn shop I would say but they are expensive too… Their is some carricatibe structure which refurbish computers and sell them gor dirt cheap. 20 Buck per tower. But that crapy computers.
Same here in México, a lot of people think their dual core Intel from 2011 (and even older than that) is still worth more than +$100USD. Even worse, companies usually want to resell devices to recover some of the cost, so even that option is kind of expensive. I’m waiting for some friends that can buy company devices for cheap so they can resell them to me for cheap too lol
‘Gaming laptop, only used occasionally. Been sitting around for a while because my kid’s got a new hobby. £1,200 no offers. I know what I’ve got’
The pictured laptop has a Centrino sticker on it and looks like it’s been used to dig a garden
Did someone fall asleep on the keyboard when they came up with kjiji?
I wouldn’t touch Facebook with a 10’ ethernet cable. Haven’t heard of kjiji, I’ll have to check it out.
You’re missing out, Facebook marketplace is THE place to buy local secondhand goods for dirt cheap without getting scammed. You do need an account but you don’t need to install anything, and the payments are not done through FB
Haven’t heard of kjiji, I’ll have to check it out.
It’s essentially Craigslist, but in Canada.
Craigslist doesn’t really have a user base here.
Except in Vancouver. It’s a Craigslist city.
Interesting… I wonder why?
I know its not the most ideal place, but FB marketplace where I live has lots of old PCs/Laptops for under 50 eur. I would probably start there personally.
Sometimes you can find them on eBay.
I go to Ebay and sort by distance. It’s like Craigslist but they send it to you!
