I am soon 53, and this never ending hate between so many people over these last few years is the sadest thing to happen in my lifetime. While I have always thought that the EU should streamline more, and I also support talking about issues that need to be solved, what is happening now is something else. I support Trump when he says that Europe must take more care of its own defense, that is fair. What do not support is an environment in which there is so much animosity that one no longer can say anything, however moderate, out of fear of being mowed down in now man’s land.
I give people a little grace considering what some of them have done. People are angry and that’s valid too. Unfortunately, the only way out of this mess is together, until both sides see that, this is what we get.
I actually had this conversion with a Norwegian fellow last night who voiced the same opinion: that EU should have paid for thier own defense and I disagreed.
Listen: if the US made the rules after WWII then EU should not have any guilt about defense spending vs taking care of its citizens because the US wanted to wag its dick across the globe.
If the US wants to stop spending so much on it military then by all means that should change, but I don’t see them moving towards universal health care or fully funding social programs anytime soon vs. bombing brown kids.
If the rhetoric from the US is that the EU should spend more on defense then the EU should demand the US take care of its citizens.
The way I see it, the money is taken from education and health care in the US and spent on European defense. 1. We don’t agree with the US in many of their wars, why should we then be dependent on the US in defense and why should the US pay? 2. I think the AI revolution may bring uncertainty in the employment market, and that part of the motivation for strange US policies may have something to do with an anticipation of uncertainty. I am not supporting antagonism, I am just saying that this is both in Eu interest AND in US interest that Eu defense spending increases, war or no war. Finally, the long expected shift towards the Asia pacific region is also a fact. The center of the world economy has moved towards Asia.
the money is taken from education and health care in the US and spent on European defense.
But we ain’t got no damn defense over here as we see in Ukraine and furthermore in Iran, with the NATO Military Industrial Complex running out of its wunderwaffen by ways of not having an industrial base to support its military ambitions. The patriots have run out and the newest F35 have no radars or are otherwise already obsolete, and the rest keep falling from the sky or some shit.
both in Eu interest AND in US interest that Eu defense spending increases, war or no war.
Why? How? Sounds absolutely nonsensical. There is no industrial base here to manufacture enough interceptors or jets for this modern stage of warfare, not even crossing into the need for rare-earth mineral mining and refinement capacity (nonexistent, afaik) that these wunderwaffen require, that can be easily countered with enough cheap drones and sufficiently advanced missiles as seen in Iran. All we as European citizens can expect from increased defense spending is an increase in repression (via surveillance tech imported from the US) and an increase in the exploitation of workers.
NATO is a grift and a scam, the military wing of US imperialism with the EU states playing the part of willing vassals in order to get their part of the plunder. Its job is to make the rich richer and keep the poor poor and to kill or otherwise dispose of any and everyone opposed. And yet here you are advocating for the same system in the name of “solidarity”?
I’m sorry if I’m completely off base here, I’m kinda struggling to comprehend your point. I don’t believe that increasing spending on one end of the scale would increase the quality of life on the other. The scale is (an integral part of) the system that withholds it from both (and further from people in the global south and other oppressed nations, like Ukraine) and what the people in both ends should do is to work to dismantle the entire system. No war but class war.
This is not true, the french have their own jets, i think. The swedes as well. There is rare earth in Norway!. It is was in the news, huge find. One of the largest ever. Germany has a tremendous industrial capability, and if they want they could do many things. Canada has vast untapped space and resources, Canada is huge. I am not talking about sainthood, i am talking about assuming more of the burden that the US has carried. You never be able to change what a politician or leader is or has been for thousands of years.
The Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon, as well as Sweden’s SAAB’s jets, are all 4th generation jets. The F-35 is 5th. One project for a unified European sixth generation fighter jet was apparently cancelled in June of this year, as France and Germany couldn’t agree on something or another. So the existing fighters will all turn obsolete soon, and the nations are incapable of agreeing what to do and will all have to work towards their own decisions for the future. Some turn to US’s F-35 (or possibly the F-47 maybe in the future sometime, if the US can fix the 14 billion dollar hole in their MIC). Or maybe the Tempest, but that’s not coming until 2035 apparently. The leaders here are expecting and preparing for a war with Russia by 2030 after all.
Despite the name, rare-earth minerals themselves aren’t actually that rare. What’s problematic is the lack of infrastructure around refinement of said materials into components that are actually usable in the defense industry. China controls most of the supply precisely due to their advanced refinement and manufacturing infrastructure, in addition to just mining. China currently controls approx. 90% of the entire supply of the rare-earths needed for military industry. Europe has no mines, and only two refineries, and apparently of those only one can process all 17 of rare-earths. 98% of the European need for these are imported from China. I have serious doubts as to the EU as it stands achieving any kind of independence from anyone.
Germany has been lauded as the workhorse of Europe for a while now, even though those in charge of the factories are currently shedding workers to save profits as capitalists tend to do. Volkswagen just announced its plans to shed 100k workers by 2030. These aren’t the actions of healthy economies, or nations that are in any way ready for war. More like impotent threats from a bully who hasn’t yet realized its larger friend’s (US) legs are broken.
You didn’t really answer any of my issues, just brought up more.
I am not sure I understood your question. You say we have no defense and therefore we should not pay for it? You say there are no rare earth mines, but there is rare earth both in Norway and on Greenland. Greenland has no infrastructure, and would be very expensive. But Alaska also has rare earth, and it i think has infrastructure and is much nearer silicon valley and china? Norway has huge amounts of rare earth? I am not talking about independence in the sense ties are severed, I am talking about having more than ONE BRAND OF CORNFLAKES. There are those who want to limit the number of cornflakes brands, and force us to eat state cornflakes. This is something we must not allow. It is about avoiding monopolies and potential extortion similar to the gas crisis. It is not about boycotting either the us or china.
nah man, I can’t really follow your train of thought on any issue. I’m saying Europe’s defence is nonexistent by being tied to an insufficient industrial base in both EU and US by virtue of NATO. The rare-earth minerals exist in the ground in both areas evidently, but neither have the industrial capacity to acquire or refine them to supply their defence industries in any meaningful amount, as China controls most of the global supply of these. I’d support my country (after a communist revolution, of course) as it tried to distance itself from the US, NATO and EU, as these all serve only to make our lives worse; I’d also support it in an endeavour to close its ties to China, as having a functional military would be needed to defend itself from the genocidal empire that is the US/EU and NATO. As it stands, though, I am opposed to any and all increases in military spending, as it will only serve the ruling class to kill more innocents, and will eventually provide nothing of worth for me, nor will it increase the quality of life any outside the ruling class.
Oh I agree in the increase but disagree on how it should be handled
I am soon 53
So, you’re old enough to know better.
I support Trump
And yet you unironically side with a Rapist, a Pedophile, and a convicted felon.
Stop with the crocodile tears. You’re not sad. You’re a psychopath.
You have cut two sentences in half? I have not said that I was a Trump supporter? I said that one particular view is something I also share. If Hitler denies that the earth is flat, it is still not flat? And I am not saying Trump is Hitler either. But one view. What if Trump said that people should drink water?
I guarantee you there are better people to align your opinions with. You chose that particular person for a reason. Whatever that reason was isn’t good enough to overcome the fact that Trump is a pedophile and you chose to say “I agree with that pedo.”
People don’t reference Ted Kaczynski’s academic works if they can cite someone else. People don’t tend to bring up Jared Fogle’s Subway commercials in a positive light now that he’s in prison. There’s nobody talking about, “But what about the good things Jeffrey Epstein did?”
One again, the scumbag doth protest too much.
Let me play the devil’s advocate here, and say: Harvey Weinstein was a brilliant producer. Is it true or is it not true?
The devil doesn’t need more advocates. But thank you for letting us know that you’re cool with rapists and pedophiles. Most likely because you are one yourself.
I am not saying that I am OK with rapists. I am saying that his professional skills have been more than documented. His personal flaws are another matter alltogether.
Incorrect. The only “professional skill” he has is lying. You have simply chosen to believe the lies rather than admit that you’ve been duped.
Your fragile ego is not evidence of his capability. You’re talking about a man with extremely advanced dementia and narcissistic personality disorder. He’s not competent. Like you, he’s a psychopath.
This is incorrect. Lying and mistreating women are flaws he has IN ADDITION to being a brilliant movie producer. Just like Werner von Braun was good at rocket engineering IN ADDITION to being a mass murdering Nazi. The earth is not flat regardless of who makes the claim. Oscar Wilde said “books are either well written or badly written. That is all.”
Amazing. You proved op’s point perfectly.
Amazing. You just proved you’re a worthless scumbag too.
Relevant username lol
so much animosity that one no longer can say anything, however moderate, out of fear of being mowed down in now man’s land.
Like…?
Demanding NATO countries pay more for their own defense is the only thing I agree with Trump on. It’s good for them and I’m sure they see that now with Russia rattling sabers at them all.
We need to continue pointing out every chance we get that the billionaires are behind all of our problems. They work every day, using their power to antagonize us, set us against each other, distract us, and gaslight us.
No war but the class war.
Your entire post is just contradictions after contradictions.
NATO is nothing but a tool for the US to project power and to subjugate non-western aligned countries into submission. There has never been a case where NATO was defensive, only offensive. Not to mention the entire NATO leadership during its founding were all high-ranking NAZI officials.
No war but the class war.
Impossible to do if you’re incapable of detecting billionaire propaganda and repeating it like you did right here
