Pathetic losers. And, even “Nazis” if they’re still in the Tesla community.

I see you go all over Lemmy electric media systems communicating in Twitter-length reactions, behaving like Elon Musk X media platform users (and Elon Musk himself) and Donald Trump on social machines like Twitter and Truth Social.

Is there anything that can be done to hold Reddit accountable or make people aware of they way they are censoring speech?

Many people on social media platforms don’t realize the spam filters can be abused by attackers to prevent certain topics from being mentioned. And on front-page subreddits they do not publish comments, they look published if you are logged in, but if you check from off-axis they are unpublished. I’ve been posting some of them here and on Bluesky, but nobody cares (on Bluesky, but people have here) !CensoredByReddit@lemm.ee maybe some tech press will cover it.

Lifetime (of the person) bans on Reddit for individual subreddits and accounts are dumb. That sites been around for decades. I can only image how many people got banned there at age 16 and are completely different people at age 22. I never see people bring this kind of criticism up.

But democratized tech doesn’t guarantee democratic outcomes.

Far from it. We really need a major confrontation of the audience, information warfare needs to be educated to every single person of every age. Continuing education about science and mythology needs to continue, as people continue to flock to fiction and abandon non-fiction in every area of life.

People just can’t be serious about democracy and LOL and meme away their nation, the USA (where I live), it’s been absolute crisis since 2014.

“Everything in our background has prepared us to know and resist a prison when the gates begin to close around us . . . But what if there are no cries of anguish to be heard? Who is prepared to take arms against a sea of amusements? To whom do we complain, and when, and in what tone of voice, when serious discourse dissolves into giggles? What is the antidote to a culture’s being drained by laughter?” ― Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business, 1985

Linux community arrogance is to deny the device driver issues and think Apple is fine, when the reason Apple thrives is because they don’t have open hardware like Linux, BSD, Windows…

Hardware companies are rarely held account for their absent support of Linux - some campaigns have come and gone, but in the end Linux users tend to arrogantly say it’s trivial to switch and embrace dishonesty. I guess they figure Microsoft is dishonest, so they normalize it.

Being open source won’t prevent this, sadly. 4 years is still young, but if a critical mass shifts back to Reddit then Lemmy will be considered a failure.

you express very limited understanding of open source and how competition works. Just because Microsoft kept selling Windows and “Linux on the Desktop” never came to displace Windows by 2005, it doesn’t mean Linux on end-user machines was a failure. Android Linux came along and is the biggest Linux distro ever, defeating Windows CE / Windows Mobile.

if a critical mass shifts back to Reddit then Lemmy will be considered a failure.

Again, that is like saying “people looked at Linux on desktop in 2003 and went back to Windows, so Linux was a failure”. Trying to displace entrenched players is often not how it works, it is when people leverage the source code and some parts of the system in different ways - like Android did with Linux - that things often change.

Regarding Reddit specifically, the Reddit code was open source for a very long time, nobody wanted to leave Reddit for different owner/operators… that changed in 2023 when every alternate to Reddit has seen a surge in developer interest (even non-federated apps like Tildes). That’s not really happened in the decades Reddit has been around before that specifically large groups of people and app developers have specifically expressed interest in moving away from Reddit in mass (Voat was the only prior big movement, but API apps were not really a focus in that movement).

By “MySpaced” I mean “become irrelevant”.

8-bit video games stopped selling in the 1990’s, but then in 2023 there is a huge “Retro gaming” and “retro computing” movement. Same with vinyl music records going out of style then coming back in as retro. Right now TikTok and video dominate Reddit front page - which Lemmy hasn’t even been taking on with video clips that reach Reddit’s technology level, let alone TikTok. There are trends of changes that are more than just one platform owners vs. another. Some of those may be in favor like federation/networked servers that Reddit does not have - that even drew the attention of Facebook.

These issues need to be addressed or Lemmy will be MySpaced within a year.

Lemmy is already well over 4 years on the Internet and open source.

How is the Fediverse privacy focused?

Not only have there been major bugs with delete of comments not working on other servers, the whole idea of federation is that it gets sent out to any instance that wants a copy - with not even a ‘terms of service’ that is standard on Lemmy.

For such a communist focus that the Lemmy developers have, I’ts so odd that they don’t emphasize that content is public and have it like Wikipedia content contributions. They use GPL license to force people to share their work of the code, but then they turn around and promise privacy that they fail to deliver on given that they don’t even warn newcomers how federation works.

Lemmy is well over 4 years old.

memes from many sources. And a lot of people created several logins on other instances given all the instability of Lemmy.

Imagine being in Taiwan and having full access to information about China and the west and still shilling for China. Those types of people should be looking for a dominatrix, not a political philosophy…

That’s kind of the history of humanity regarding religion. To some degree when the religious prophets were alive it make sense, but hundreds of years later it’s a story book (or oral tradition) and people still strive for the authority.

We haven’t really had that many teachers like Carl Sagan who describe the history and our favoring of authority - inability to question them. It’s pretty weird, as they often aren’t attractive or good speakers, but you see people just accept almost anything they say. I mean in the USA I witnessed so many people who would trust Rush Limbaugh and Alex Jones kind of blindly, and there is some mechanism at play that humanity in total seems to keep engaging.

It’s the spam filtering, and they consider people spamming any link… and each subreddit can set the spam fitler higher or not. This was going on long before Lemmy and I’ve seen it even with BBC links.

Edit 4: The Shadow-Ban doesn’t seem to work on r/help but definitely on r/hfy.

I’ve seen this come up with a large number of links on Reddit that were even to BBC website. It comes down to the subreddit settings on spam filtering…

I think the whole process of automatic hiding of spam filtering for user accounts is a bad-faith experience. People on Reddit are infamous for not actually reading links and wanting bots to bring in text and such, and I think a lot of the anti-spam measures cultivated this for a very long time.

One thing that crowdsoucing never was very good at was spam filtering… because too many would sell out and buy upvotes/likes on Twitter/Reddit etc.

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/3475

Spent some hours tracing the code, inserting logging that I watched based on a UPVOTE being federated.

diff --git a/crates/api/src/comment/like.rs b/crates/api/src/comment/like.rs
index 6c4bdebc7..063249a7e 100644
--- a/crates/api/src/comment/like.rs
+++ b/crates/api/src/comment/like.rs
@@ -17,6 +17,7 @@ use lemmy_db_schema::{
 };
 use lemmy_db_views::structs::{CommentView, LocalUserView};
 use lemmy_utils::error::LemmyError;
+use tracing::warn;
 
 #[async_trait::async_trait(?Send)]
 impl Perform for CreateCommentLike {
@@ -25,6 +26,7 @@ impl Perform for CreateCommentLike {
   #[tracing::instrument(skip(context))]
   async fn perform(&self, context: &Data<LemmyContext>) -> Result<CommentResponse, LemmyError> {
     let data: &CreateCommentLike = self;
+    // Here we are with that database read on every single like for site data.
     let local_site = LocalSite::read(context.pool()).await?;
     let local_user_view = local_user_view_from_jwt(&data.auth, context).await?;
 
@@ -62,16 +64,20 @@ impl Perform for CreateCommentLike {
     // Remove any likes first
     let person_id = local_user_view.person.id;
 
+    // does database transaction, despite next one doing update condition?
     CommentLike::remove(context.pool(), person_id, comment_id).await?;
 
     // Only add the like if the score isnt 0
     let do_add = like_form.score != 0 && (like_form.score == 1 || like_form.score == -1);
     if do_add {
+      // this does database transaction. it await for result
       CommentLike::like(context.pool(), &like_form)
         .await
         .map_err(|e| LemmyError::from_error_message(e, "couldnt_like_comment"))?;
     }
 
+    warn!("zebratrace100 vote do_add {:?}", do_add);
+
     build_comment_response(
       context,
       comment_id,
diff --git a/crates/apub/src/activities/community/announce.rs b/crates/apub/src/activities/community/announce.rs
index 116b02726..62af17a1a 100644
--- a/crates/apub/src/activities/community/announce.rs
+++ b/crates/apub/src/activities/community/announce.rs
@@ -24,6 +24,7 @@ use lemmy_api_common::context::LemmyContext;
 use lemmy_utils::error::LemmyError;
 use serde_json::Value;
 use url::Url;
+use tracing::warn;
 
 #[async_trait::async_trait]
 impl ActivityHandler for RawAnnouncableActivities {
@@ -93,6 +94,11 @@ impl AnnounceActivity {
   ) -> Result<(), LemmyError> {
     let announce = AnnounceActivity::new(object.clone(), community, context)?;
     let inboxes = community.get_follower_inboxes(context).await?;
+
+    // example, local community with remote subscribers generates this: zebratrace500 like activity inboxes [Url { scheme: "https", cannot_be_a_base: false, username: "", password: None, host: Some(Domain("lemmy.ml")), port: None, path: "/inbox", query: None, fragment: None }, Url { scheme: "https", cannot_be_a_base: false, username: "", password: None, host: Some(Domain("lemmy.management")), port: None, path: "/inbox", query: None, fragment: None }, Url { scheme: "https", cannot_be_a_base: false, username: "", password: None, host: Some(Domain("lemmy.austinite.online")), port: None, path: "/inbox", query: None, fragment: None }, Url { scheme: "https", cannot_be_a_base: false, username: "", password: None, host: Some(Domain("lemmywinks.xyz")), port: None, path: "/inbox", query: None, fragment: None }, Url { scheme: "https", cannot_be_a_base: false, username: "", password: None, host: Some(Domain("lemmy.asc6.org")), port: None, path: "/inbox", query: None, fragment: None }]
+    // example, local community with no remote subscribers, generates this: zebratrace500 like activity inboxes []
+    warn!("zebratrace500 like activity inboxes {:?}", inboxes);
+
     send_lemmy_activity(context, announce, community, inboxes.clone(), false).await?;
 
     // Pleroma and Mastodon can't handle activities like Announce/Create/Page. So for
diff --git a/crates/apub/src/activities/community/mod.rs b/crates/apub/src/activities/community/mod.rs
index 010bad4f4..58ae1b732 100644
--- a/crates/apub/src/activities/community/mod.rs
+++ b/crates/apub/src/activities/community/mod.rs
@@ -9,6 +9,7 @@ use lemmy_api_common::context::LemmyContext;
 use lemmy_db_schema::source::person::PersonFollower;
 use lemmy_utils::error::LemmyError;
 use url::Url;
+use tracing::warn;
 
 pub mod announce;
 pub mod collection_add;
@@ -51,6 +52,8 @@ pub(crate) async fn send_activity_in_community(
     );
   }
 
+  warn!("zebratrace300 send_activity_in_community vote local? {:?}", community.local);
+
   if community.local {
     // send directly to community followers
     AnnounceActivity::send(activity.clone().try_into()?, community, context).await?;
@@ -59,6 +62,14 @@ pub(crate) async fn send_activity_in_community(
     inboxes.push(community.shared_inbox_or_inbox());
   }
 
+  // example output, remote homed community: zebratrace301 send_activity_in_community vote inboxes [Url { scheme: "https", cannot_be_a_base: false, username: "", password: None, host: Some(Domain("beehaw.org")), port: None, path: "/inbox", query: None, fragment: None }]
+  // example output, local homed community with no remote followers: zebratrace301 send_activity_in_community vote inboxes []
+  // same output even when local community has a remote follower: zebratrace301 send_activity_in_community vote inboxes []
+  warn!("zebratrace301 send_activity_in_community vote inboxes {:?}", inboxes);
+
   send_lemmy_activity(context, activity.clone(), actor, inboxes, false).await?;
+
+  warn!("zebratrace302 send_activity_in_community after");
+
   Ok(())
 }
diff --git a/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/mod.rs b/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/mod.rs
index 8bae05577..17d89557f 100644
--- a/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/mod.rs
+++ b/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/mod.rs
@@ -31,6 +31,7 @@ use lemmy_utils::error::LemmyError;
 
 pub mod undo_vote;
 pub mod vote;
+use tracing::warn;
 
 #[async_trait::async_trait]
 impl SendActivity for CreatePostLike {
@@ -76,6 +77,7 @@ impl SendActivity for CreateCommentLike {
   }
 }
 
+// this send_activity is for votes, look at the score parameter
 async fn send_activity(
   object_id: ObjectId<PostOrComment>,
   community_id: CommunityId,
@@ -89,6 +91,10 @@ async fn send_activity(
     .await?
     .into();
 
+  // production testing reveals that this code is hit with a user doing a vote on local or federated comment.
+  // production testing reveals that when a local user votes, even in a community with zero remote subscribers, this has a hefty &actor data payload. which is just the user who did the vote... lots of overhead to vote on a comment?
+  warn!("zebratrace200 send_activity vote {:?}", &actor);
+
   // score of 1 means upvote, -1 downvote, 0 undo a previous vote
   if score != 0 {
     let vote = Vote::new(object_id, &actor, &community, score.try_into()?, context)?;
diff --git a/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/undo_vote.rs b/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/undo_vote.rs
index bcb8ee406..44da390f3 100644
--- a/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/undo_vote.rs
+++ b/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/undo_vote.rs
@@ -12,6 +12,7 @@ use crate::{
   },
   PostOrComment,
 };
+// Ok, federation is involved here in this class somehow
 use activitypub_federation::{
   config::Data,
   kinds::activity::UndoType,
diff --git a/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/vote.rs b/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/vote.rs
index 7f36ed471..ee72563ed 100644
--- a/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/vote.rs
+++ b/crates/apub/src/activities/voting/vote.rs
@@ -12,6 +12,7 @@ use crate::{
   },
   PostOrComment,
 };
+// Ok, federation is involved somehow here
 use activitypub_federation::{
   config::Data,
   fetch::object_id::ObjectId,
@@ -22,6 +23,7 @@ use lemmy_api_common::context::LemmyContext;
 use lemmy_db_schema::source::local_site::LocalSite;
 use lemmy_utils::error::LemmyError;
 use url::Url;
+use tracing::warn;
 
 impl Vote {
   pub(in crate::activities::voting) fn new(
@@ -57,6 +59,7 @@ impl ActivityHandler for Vote {
   #[tracing::instrument(skip_all)]
   async fn verify(&self, context: &Data<LemmyContext>) -> Result<(), LemmyError> {
     let community = self.community(context).await?;
+    warn!("zebratrace000 vote verify {:?}", &self.actor);
     verify_person_in_community(&self.actor, &community, context).await?;
     let enable_downvotes = LocalSite::read(context.pool())
       .await
@@ -70,6 +73,8 @@ impl ActivityHandler for Vote {
 
   #[tracing::instrument(skip_all)]
   async fn receive(self, context: &Data<LemmyContext>) -> Result<(), LemmyError> {
+    // based on testing with a client locally, this code path is only used for federatio incoming votes?
+    warn!("zebratrace000 vote receive {:?}", &self.id);
     insert_activity(&self.id, &self, false, true, context).await?;
     let actor = self.actor.dereference(context).await?;
     let object = self.object.dereference(context).await?;
diff --git a/crates/apub/src/objects/community.rs b/crates/apub/src/objects/community.rs
index 17476e9f8..e437c61ad 100644
--- a/crates/apub/src/objects/community.rs
+++ b/crates/apub/src/objects/community.rs
@@ -33,6 +33,7 @@ use lemmy_utils::{
 };
 use std::ops::Deref;
 use tracing::debug;
+use tracing::warn;
 use url::Url;
 
 #[derive(Clone, Debug)]
@@ -207,6 +208,8 @@ impl ApubCommunity {
       })
       .collect();
 
+    warn!("zebratrace600 is every single federated outbound Like hitting this poiint?");
+
     Ok(inboxes)
   }
 }